emotion
Sep 21, 09:11 AM
Ha ha how's that for conjecture? :)
I guess we'll see. I'll be surprised but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
I guess we'll see. I'll be surprised but it's not beyond the realms of possibility.
archipellago
May 2, 05:02 PM
My head hurts� everyone needs a time out! Go to your corners! :p
sorry, I'm done here now.
sorry, I'm done here now.
Sounds Good
Apr 6, 08:22 AM
Good stuff, Spaceman, very helpful.
Question: where can I go online to learn about some of these "more advanced" things? Not just the basic "Why a Mac?" videos, but the good stuff.
Question: where can I go online to learn about some of these "more advanced" things? Not just the basic "Why a Mac?" videos, but the good stuff.
R.Perez
Mar 13, 06:52 PM
Did you even read the article you posted? The stored solar energy is drained after 8 hours. Which means if you have a day where the sun is obstructed, your city will black out.
did you actually read my post? Centralized solar would just be one part.
did you actually read my post? Centralized solar would just be one part.
balamw
Apr 10, 08:20 PM
I'm not sure sure what you mean when you say "for the things it is good at." What do you mean? What things?
They've been all over this thread, but you've been focused on the negatives.
Mac hardware: Multi-touch gestures. Yes, some PCs have "multi-touch" trackpads, but none are as smooth (literally and operationally) as that on a MacBook. Macs generally value quietness. This is a plus for anyone who works with audio or requires concentration. Minimal fan noise and such. Magsafe. It's a dumb little thing, but I've dumped my laptop plenty of times with the power cord before. It's nice to know I have some protection and it's saved me many times. You pretty much have to try a unibody machine to feel how different they feel than a typical plastic OEM box. Whether it's in your bag, on your lap or on your desk they feel solid with no little pieces to break and fall off. While YMMV, the glass over the display has been great for me with kids who love to poke at the screen. A micro fiber cloth brings it back to mint condition. I've also gotten so used to the darn MBP keyboard that I had to get one for my iMac and also use an Apple KB on my desktop PC. (Sad I know).
OS X: Display PDF is built in. This allows all apps to generate PDFs trivially, WYSIWYG works far better than on Windows and the Preview.app tool can edit PDFs in ways that require tons of software on a PC. Expose. Spaces. Xcode. Each of these has a near equivalent on the PC, but for many of us the advantage is to OS X's implementation. If you want to develop iOS apps, you should really do that on a Mac. Time Machine. Not perfect, but really nice for unattended wireless backup. Unix inside. For those of us who are technical at any level or who also appreciate Linux it's nice to be able to have a fully functional Unix environment just under the surface. iTunes works 100% better under OS X than the Windows port. For those of use with large libraries that matters. System wide scripting. Most Mac OS X apps can be scripted using Applescript or automated using Automator.. It's far simpler and more pervasive than under Windows.
The whole package. Battery life. Mac laptops running OS X tend to last a whole lot longer than their Windows counterparts. Power management just works. (I've had tons of problems with start up, sleep, wake, hibernate, shut down, etc... in Windows for years, and I see it hasn't improved with my wife's one year old Lenovo from work). I've also had PC notebook batteries that won't even last a year, but have never had to replace a battery in any of my Macs.
That's just off the top of my head and what is important to me.
If you gave it a chance you might find something that is important to you. If you don't you certainly won't.
B
They've been all over this thread, but you've been focused on the negatives.
Mac hardware: Multi-touch gestures. Yes, some PCs have "multi-touch" trackpads, but none are as smooth (literally and operationally) as that on a MacBook. Macs generally value quietness. This is a plus for anyone who works with audio or requires concentration. Minimal fan noise and such. Magsafe. It's a dumb little thing, but I've dumped my laptop plenty of times with the power cord before. It's nice to know I have some protection and it's saved me many times. You pretty much have to try a unibody machine to feel how different they feel than a typical plastic OEM box. Whether it's in your bag, on your lap or on your desk they feel solid with no little pieces to break and fall off. While YMMV, the glass over the display has been great for me with kids who love to poke at the screen. A micro fiber cloth brings it back to mint condition. I've also gotten so used to the darn MBP keyboard that I had to get one for my iMac and also use an Apple KB on my desktop PC. (Sad I know).
OS X: Display PDF is built in. This allows all apps to generate PDFs trivially, WYSIWYG works far better than on Windows and the Preview.app tool can edit PDFs in ways that require tons of software on a PC. Expose. Spaces. Xcode. Each of these has a near equivalent on the PC, but for many of us the advantage is to OS X's implementation. If you want to develop iOS apps, you should really do that on a Mac. Time Machine. Not perfect, but really nice for unattended wireless backup. Unix inside. For those of us who are technical at any level or who also appreciate Linux it's nice to be able to have a fully functional Unix environment just under the surface. iTunes works 100% better under OS X than the Windows port. For those of use with large libraries that matters. System wide scripting. Most Mac OS X apps can be scripted using Applescript or automated using Automator.. It's far simpler and more pervasive than under Windows.
The whole package. Battery life. Mac laptops running OS X tend to last a whole lot longer than their Windows counterparts. Power management just works. (I've had tons of problems with start up, sleep, wake, hibernate, shut down, etc... in Windows for years, and I see it hasn't improved with my wife's one year old Lenovo from work). I've also had PC notebook batteries that won't even last a year, but have never had to replace a battery in any of my Macs.
That's just off the top of my head and what is important to me.
If you gave it a chance you might find something that is important to you. If you don't you certainly won't.
B
Rt&Dzine
Apr 26, 05:16 PM
You gotta do better than youtube videos.
Can you cite anything verified scientifically?
The Nun Bun. Verified to look like Mother Theresa.
283095
The Jesus toast. Verified to look like Jesus or Jeff Daniels.
283096
Can you cite anything verified scientifically?
The Nun Bun. Verified to look like Mother Theresa.
283095
The Jesus toast. Verified to look like Jesus or Jeff Daniels.
283096
risc
Sep 12, 03:44 PM
An interesting device it sounds like the El Gato EyeHome. As long as it can play all normal video/audio formats (whatever you have QuickTime components for) and it has support for El Gato EyeTV I'll happily replace my XP MCE box with one.
r1ch4rd
Apr 22, 11:02 PM
Dawkins might. As I said before, most atheists are agnostic atheists.
I think the definition is a bit tricky to nail down. I don't think that theists know that there is a God. They just believe that there is. I think my belief is just as strong as that. They may argue otherwise.
I think the definition is a bit tricky to nail down. I don't think that theists know that there is a God. They just believe that there is. I think my belief is just as strong as that. They may argue otherwise.
arkitect
Apr 15, 12:01 PM
ALL Catholics are called to chastity. 100% of them. It's too bad you don't know what the word means.
Really? ;)
So I can have same-sex sex and it is just as OK (in the eyes of the Catholic Church) for me and my partner as it is for a straight couple to have sex?
Kewl.
I don't think so… But nice try anyway.
Ah, semantics.
Of course most people (and I am sure good Catholics) equate it with sexual abstinance.
Really? ;)
So I can have same-sex sex and it is just as OK (in the eyes of the Catholic Church) for me and my partner as it is for a straight couple to have sex?
Kewl.
I don't think so… But nice try anyway.
Ah, semantics.
Of course most people (and I am sure good Catholics) equate it with sexual abstinance.
ArizonaKid
Aug 29, 11:02 AM
Boo hoo. its a business, waht do they realistically expect?
Organizations are responsible for the impact they have on community resources that impact everyone. Apple is going to have bad news sometimes, so accept it.
Organizations are responsible for the impact they have on community resources that impact everyone. Apple is going to have bad news sometimes, so accept it.
fat phil
Apr 13, 08:45 AM
Having the tools doesn't mean you know how to use them - but with more people having the tools thinking they do - the value of those that REALLY do can be affected if it appears that "anyone" can do it.
That's a pretty common thread of thinking in the creative business. I mean, test tubes are pretty cheap but you don't get every tom dick and harry claiming to be biologists, right? :)
Professionals don't have to worry, unless there's a hoard of untapped creative genius lurked out there.
A poor editor will have a poor showreel. That'll never change. All that changes is the number of canned effects we have to look for to realise that they didn't do the clever stuff on their own... Damn those "do something clever" buttons!
That's a pretty common thread of thinking in the creative business. I mean, test tubes are pretty cheap but you don't get every tom dick and harry claiming to be biologists, right? :)
Professionals don't have to worry, unless there's a hoard of untapped creative genius lurked out there.
A poor editor will have a poor showreel. That'll never change. All that changes is the number of canned effects we have to look for to realise that they didn't do the clever stuff on their own... Damn those "do something clever" buttons!
dethmaShine
May 2, 09:17 AM
And it begins...
I'z scared :(
lol
That's the same FUD every time we hear about a new malware attack on OS X.
I'z scared :(
lol
That's the same FUD every time we hear about a new malware attack on OS X.
AppliedVisual
Oct 14, 03:58 PM
Wow, the Quad Xeon is the Pentium D all over again!
The Quad Xeon is two Dual Xeons glued together, and the Pentium D was two Pentium 4s glued together.
Its still faster than the Dual Xeons, but it isnt as good as it can be.
Yeah... Kinda disappointing. Although, my 3D rendering work will benefit just fine from them as while it's CPU intensive, it's not bandwidth hungry and the software itself isn't all that great for thread scheduling, so it's better to run multiple software instances for each CPU/core. I'm curious to see how the Clovertowns compare to the upcoming AMD quad-core chips, which have full 4-way shared data pipe and L2 cache. I think it's going to be just like the AMD X2 vs. the Pentium-D all over again. AMD will hold the quad-core performance title until Intel releases their 45nm process chips with all 4 cores being fully linked. But such is the way it's been for the last few years, AMD and Intel continue to play leap-frog. Which is great for the consumer as it drives CPU tech ahead so fast... Too bad my wallet can't keep up. :(
The Quad Xeon is two Dual Xeons glued together, and the Pentium D was two Pentium 4s glued together.
Its still faster than the Dual Xeons, but it isnt as good as it can be.
Yeah... Kinda disappointing. Although, my 3D rendering work will benefit just fine from them as while it's CPU intensive, it's not bandwidth hungry and the software itself isn't all that great for thread scheduling, so it's better to run multiple software instances for each CPU/core. I'm curious to see how the Clovertowns compare to the upcoming AMD quad-core chips, which have full 4-way shared data pipe and L2 cache. I think it's going to be just like the AMD X2 vs. the Pentium-D all over again. AMD will hold the quad-core performance title until Intel releases their 45nm process chips with all 4 cores being fully linked. But such is the way it's been for the last few years, AMD and Intel continue to play leap-frog. Which is great for the consumer as it drives CPU tech ahead so fast... Too bad my wallet can't keep up. :(
myamid
Sep 12, 06:52 PM
Wow, a TON OF YOU totally miss the iTV purpose, to stream content FROM YOUR MAC! That's why no tuner, no storage, no anything!! Does Airport Express have storage, an antenna, etc?!? NO!!!
I love this! I want one today! I'm going to get a huge HD, maybe two of them and start my stored media collection on my G5 that I can wirelessly access in my HT room from the iTV's wireless remote!! I love it!! Music, Family photos in a slide show, eyegato to record HD programs!! Awesome!!!
This so rocks and will make a ton of money for Apple! I can't wait, this is truly what I've been looking for as there's no HDMI out on my G5!!
Ok, if you're SOOOOO thrilled, you've been living in a cave because you could've been doing that for years, there's nothing new here aside for an apple logo on the box... the EyeHome could do that for the last 3 years (no storage, with a remote, streaming from my mac over Wifi - the eyehome physically connected to the router, my Mac on Wifi) (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyehome ). And you're right, it's great... Too bad you still have to wait 6 months :P
I love this! I want one today! I'm going to get a huge HD, maybe two of them and start my stored media collection on my G5 that I can wirelessly access in my HT room from the iTV's wireless remote!! I love it!! Music, Family photos in a slide show, eyegato to record HD programs!! Awesome!!!
This so rocks and will make a ton of money for Apple! I can't wait, this is truly what I've been looking for as there's no HDMI out on my G5!!
Ok, if you're SOOOOO thrilled, you've been living in a cave because you could've been doing that for years, there's nothing new here aside for an apple logo on the box... the EyeHome could do that for the last 3 years (no storage, with a remote, streaming from my mac over Wifi - the eyehome physically connected to the router, my Mac on Wifi) (http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file=products_eyehome ). And you're right, it's great... Too bad you still have to wait 6 months :P
firestarter
Mar 13, 10:01 AM
i recommend thinking about what the results might have been if the earthquake hadn't been dozens of miles away, but in closer proximity (even at a lower magnitude)
and emergency cooling systems not working on 6 reactors and 2 meltdowns are now considered "stood up well" ? those reactors just had saftey improvements/reworks done last year
Well, this is still playing out. If they avoid a containment breech, then they'll have stood up as well as needs-be.
Safety has to be designed in to reactors from the ground up. 40 year old technology is 40 year old technology - no matter what tweaks you do at a later date.
Pontificating about the fate of nuclear power stations on seismic fault lines isn't any sort of argument against using them in Western Europe or in much of the USA.
uranian isn't limited: with current nuclear plants and those in construction the point of running out of easy usable uraniam for nuclear electricity is perhaps 30 years away
economical that point might be reached faster since uranium mining will become more and more expensive with oil/fuel becoming more expensive
Figures I'm reading say we have 80 years of identified deposits with more to be discovered.
Main sources countries are politically pretty stable (more so than the Middle East!)
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf75.html
Australia 31%
Kazakhstan 12%
Canada 9%
Russia 9%
Canada's supply is especially high quality.
that's why nuclear plants are actually worse than estimated in the past, in terms of energy produced in lifetime/ energy used during construction + operation. Vattenfall themselves actually found that out.
i'm no fan of the oil industry either but talking about how an other industry is 'just as bad as the oil industry', doesn't exactly help ;)
Why doesn't it help? Unless you're advocating massive depopulation, we have a growing requirement for energy, and by not choosing nuclear, you are choosing fossil fuel - whether you like it or not! My opinion is that the oil industry and it's political ramifications are much more damaging than nuclear!
Just watch as the Europe and the US supports the Saudi royal family in the oppression of their people over the next few months. Democratic government is fine in Egypt, but there's no way we'll support it in Saudi - we care about their oil too much!
the Three Gorges Dam is perhaps on the same scale of impact compared to Assuan or the one planned in brazil but i can easily ask: what is your opinion on the Hoover dam ?
The Hoover dam has a lower impact than the Three Gorges by a long shot.
Personally, I believe in a balanced approach to energy production, but with a diminishing reliance on fossil fuel. In that context both nuclear and renewable power expansion is essential.
The point I was making is that the environmental argument against nuclear and for renewable is bogus. All forms of power generation have negative environmental impact.
Here's an interesting paper by the eminent Green advocate James Lovelock:
Nuclear power is the only green solution (http://www.ecolo.org/media/articles/articles.in.english/love-indep-24-05-04.htm)
and emergency cooling systems not working on 6 reactors and 2 meltdowns are now considered "stood up well" ? those reactors just had saftey improvements/reworks done last year
Well, this is still playing out. If they avoid a containment breech, then they'll have stood up as well as needs-be.
Safety has to be designed in to reactors from the ground up. 40 year old technology is 40 year old technology - no matter what tweaks you do at a later date.
Pontificating about the fate of nuclear power stations on seismic fault lines isn't any sort of argument against using them in Western Europe or in much of the USA.
uranian isn't limited: with current nuclear plants and those in construction the point of running out of easy usable uraniam for nuclear electricity is perhaps 30 years away
economical that point might be reached faster since uranium mining will become more and more expensive with oil/fuel becoming more expensive
Figures I'm reading say we have 80 years of identified deposits with more to be discovered.
Main sources countries are politically pretty stable (more so than the Middle East!)
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf75.html
Australia 31%
Kazakhstan 12%
Canada 9%
Russia 9%
Canada's supply is especially high quality.
that's why nuclear plants are actually worse than estimated in the past, in terms of energy produced in lifetime/ energy used during construction + operation. Vattenfall themselves actually found that out.
i'm no fan of the oil industry either but talking about how an other industry is 'just as bad as the oil industry', doesn't exactly help ;)
Why doesn't it help? Unless you're advocating massive depopulation, we have a growing requirement for energy, and by not choosing nuclear, you are choosing fossil fuel - whether you like it or not! My opinion is that the oil industry and it's political ramifications are much more damaging than nuclear!
Just watch as the Europe and the US supports the Saudi royal family in the oppression of their people over the next few months. Democratic government is fine in Egypt, but there's no way we'll support it in Saudi - we care about their oil too much!
the Three Gorges Dam is perhaps on the same scale of impact compared to Assuan or the one planned in brazil but i can easily ask: what is your opinion on the Hoover dam ?
The Hoover dam has a lower impact than the Three Gorges by a long shot.
Personally, I believe in a balanced approach to energy production, but with a diminishing reliance on fossil fuel. In that context both nuclear and renewable power expansion is essential.
The point I was making is that the environmental argument against nuclear and for renewable is bogus. All forms of power generation have negative environmental impact.
Here's an interesting paper by the eminent Green advocate James Lovelock:
Nuclear power is the only green solution (http://www.ecolo.org/media/articles/articles.in.english/love-indep-24-05-04.htm)
Huntn
Mar 15, 07:12 PM
I did a little reading and now am a one minute expert... :p
I've read these reactors did auto shut down when the earthquake hit. The problem is that the rods create tremendous persistent heat even after a shutdown, and it is the lack of cooling water that is causing the problem.
Could it be considered a myth that any nuclear reactor can be expected to automatically safely shutdown when power to all safety systems are lost no matter how it is designed?
And who was saying this could not be like Chernobyl??
I've read these reactors did auto shut down when the earthquake hit. The problem is that the rods create tremendous persistent heat even after a shutdown, and it is the lack of cooling water that is causing the problem.
Could it be considered a myth that any nuclear reactor can be expected to automatically safely shutdown when power to all safety systems are lost no matter how it is designed?
And who was saying this could not be like Chernobyl??
brianus
Sep 26, 02:19 PM
If what you say is true, then yes that would be IT. Why won't Tigerton go in Summer '07 Mac Pros?
This was epitaphic's explanation:
Intel has two lines of Xeon processors:
* The 5000 series is DP (dual processor, like Woodcrest, Clovertown)
* The 7000 series MP (multi processor - eg 4+ processors)
Tigerton is supposed to be an MP version of Clovertown. Meaning, you can have as many chips as the motherboard supports, and just like Clovertown its an MCM (two processors in one package). 7000's are also about 5-10x the price of 5000's.
So unless the specs for Tigerton severely change, no point even considering it on a Mac Pro (high end xserve is plausible).
(gotta love that arbitrary terminology, huh? -- 2 processors apparently isn't "multiple").
This was epitaphic's explanation:
Intel has two lines of Xeon processors:
* The 5000 series is DP (dual processor, like Woodcrest, Clovertown)
* The 7000 series MP (multi processor - eg 4+ processors)
Tigerton is supposed to be an MP version of Clovertown. Meaning, you can have as many chips as the motherboard supports, and just like Clovertown its an MCM (two processors in one package). 7000's are also about 5-10x the price of 5000's.
So unless the specs for Tigerton severely change, no point even considering it on a Mac Pro (high end xserve is plausible).
(gotta love that arbitrary terminology, huh? -- 2 processors apparently isn't "multiple").
*LTD*
Apr 28, 08:23 AM
There's a difference between a PC (machine that gives you the ability to work) and a communication / entertainment device.
We are currently witnessing the melding of the two, with the mobile side emerging as the favoured platform.
Yes, you'll see content creation on tablet and pad devices. It's inevitable as they get more powerful and easier to use.
We are currently witnessing the melding of the two, with the mobile side emerging as the favoured platform.
Yes, you'll see content creation on tablet and pad devices. It's inevitable as they get more powerful and easier to use.
tteerts
Sep 29, 09:28 AM
Thanks for the info folks. I would definitely not have picked up on that subtelty otherwise.
odedia
Jul 12, 12:00 AM
Hate to say I told you so (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2559135#post2559135) ;)
Oded S.
Oded S.
darkplanets
Mar 12, 11:18 PM
It won't be an issue. Please refer to my previous post in this thread.
I feel like the fear mongering done by the international media is just unreal-- is everyone that uneducated?
I feel like the fear mongering done by the international media is just unreal-- is everyone that uneducated?
samcraig
Mar 18, 12:20 PM
Exactly what I was thinking. Screw the next 4 hours, for the next month I'm going to non-stop stream audio and video. I even disabled WiFi so I don't use my works connection I use only AT&T's.
Blow me ATT.
Netflix non-stop for the next month
And this accomplishes what - exactly?
Blow me ATT.
Netflix non-stop for the next month
And this accomplishes what - exactly?
SuperCachetes
Mar 27, 09:35 AM
You need to learn how to read quoted text before reading a response.
You obviously seem to be missing the extremely simple point here, I was merely pointing out that in Catholicism priests are expected to be celibate so expecting a gay person to be celibate is not exactly unheard of in a religious context.
The fact that some people have the opinion that being gay is OK as long as you are not a practicing gay follows the same logic as priests being expected to remain celibate and also shares some of the reasons why as well.
If you had followed the thread you would see where the original comment came from.
And maybe you need to learn that when you reiterate a point that has already been made in the form of a "why not" question, you are viewed to be supporting the point. I have followed the thread, and I saw the point you were quoting. If you are saying that it makes any kind of sense, I'll ask you again, "why?"
That the Catholics believe this bit about celibacy has been apparent for a few pages - there was never any need for you to regurgitate the point. But now that you apparently have, and have assigned some sort of logic to it, I'm asking what is that logic. What reasons that apply to a priest being celibate might apply to a gay person?
You seem to be trying to defend everything about your post but the only issue anyone could ever have with it.
You obviously seem to be missing the extremely simple point here, I was merely pointing out that in Catholicism priests are expected to be celibate so expecting a gay person to be celibate is not exactly unheard of in a religious context.
The fact that some people have the opinion that being gay is OK as long as you are not a practicing gay follows the same logic as priests being expected to remain celibate and also shares some of the reasons why as well.
If you had followed the thread you would see where the original comment came from.
And maybe you need to learn that when you reiterate a point that has already been made in the form of a "why not" question, you are viewed to be supporting the point. I have followed the thread, and I saw the point you were quoting. If you are saying that it makes any kind of sense, I'll ask you again, "why?"
That the Catholics believe this bit about celibacy has been apparent for a few pages - there was never any need for you to regurgitate the point. But now that you apparently have, and have assigned some sort of logic to it, I'm asking what is that logic. What reasons that apply to a priest being celibate might apply to a gay person?
You seem to be trying to defend everything about your post but the only issue anyone could ever have with it.
Photics
Apr 9, 09:42 AM
I love how people are comparing an iOS device with a PS3 or Xbox..
That's where things are going.
I read that a new XBOX might not be released for another 5 years and that the PlayStation is on a 10 year schedule. If that's actually the schedule, then the consoles could face serious competition from iOS and Android games.
The graphics difference from the first iPhone to the iPhone 4 or iPad 2 is a great comparison. That's just four years. What if that advancement continues for the next four years � which is very likely � the graphics could be amazing on iOS devices.
If the Apple TV � basically an iOS device � starts playing games, or if the iPad 2 matures as a gaming console (as it already plugs into the TV), how is that not competition for Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo?
I think it makes sense to compare Apple to the XBOX 360 and PlayStation 3. I'm not impressed with what I see on the consoles. Infamous is one of the best looking games on the PS3. Is it worth $60 to me? Ha, no! Instead, I bought cheaper games like Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix and Pac Man Championship Edition DX. Those are two great games... and both could be moved to iOS, and it would likely be cheaper.
That's where things are going.
I read that a new XBOX might not be released for another 5 years and that the PlayStation is on a 10 year schedule. If that's actually the schedule, then the consoles could face serious competition from iOS and Android games.
The graphics difference from the first iPhone to the iPhone 4 or iPad 2 is a great comparison. That's just four years. What if that advancement continues for the next four years � which is very likely � the graphics could be amazing on iOS devices.
If the Apple TV � basically an iOS device � starts playing games, or if the iPad 2 matures as a gaming console (as it already plugs into the TV), how is that not competition for Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo?
I think it makes sense to compare Apple to the XBOX 360 and PlayStation 3. I'm not impressed with what I see on the consoles. Infamous is one of the best looking games on the PS3. Is it worth $60 to me? Ha, no! Instead, I bought cheaper games like Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix and Pac Man Championship Edition DX. Those are two great games... and both could be moved to iOS, and it would likely be cheaper.
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